This is roughly a bad paraphrase of something interesting that was said at church last night...
Many atheists / agnostics / philosophical materialists (people who say that matter is all there is) / etc say that believing in God is stupid.
But if you say that matter is all there is, then before too long (on the time scale of the universe), humanity will be extinguished, either by our own actions or by the slow death of the Sun. And everything that everyone has ever accomplished will be worth precisely nothing. There will be no memory of anyone; there will be no consciousness to observe our remains - nothing and the universe will carry on as if we had never existed.
In the light of that, it seems at least as crazy for an atheist to attach meaning or significance to anything ever done by anyone as it does to say there's a God who transcends it and who can provide meaning.
9 comments:
Ecclesiastes teaches that stuff in this life is transitory.
That's very different from everything being purposeless, precisely because God's actions last forever.
Glad that you agree that atheism should logically conclude, from its own premises, that everything is meaningless and pointless. But I don't see how they can even then construct transitory meaning or significance. Care to clarify how anything can have any meaning if everything ends in extinction anyway?
Two issues here.
In terms of how God's actions being eternal lead to a purpose for life for Christians, I think that's addressed in, for example Ecclesiastes 3:11-15, where revering God is seen as the purpose; 5:18-20, where God giving us things means that we should enjoy them; but probably supremely in 12:13-14:
Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
As regards atheists constructing meaning - of course I observe [b]that[/b] they seem to do it, and in what they try to invest meaning. I'm simply saying that I don't see why that isn't crazily inconsistent with what they believe about the absolute futility of the whole of human existence.
Another question would be do Christians not commit suicide simply because they are told not to in the bible?
AD
Um - when have I ever said that I expect atheists to find meaning from knowing and serving God? I think that's the only source of meaning, therefore my conclusion is that atheists cannot have true meaning while they remain atheists.
The problem with atheistic existential construction of meaning is that you're always aware that it actually has no meaning. To pretend otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest, as far as I can tell.
I'm not an existentialist - I think there are ways out for Christians. But I don't see that there is an honest way out of existential despair for atheists.
So in reality, what most of them do is they live as if there is meaning and value in the world. The point of the speaker at church was that that from their point of view, there is no less of a jump to say that than to believe in God.
I find it striking that Sartre, while remaining an atheist, said
I do not feel that I am the product of chance, a speck of dust in the universe, but someone who was expected, prepared, prefigured. In short, a being whom only a Creator could put here; and this idea of a creating hand refers to God.
Which I guess is close to what Kierkegaard was saying, but I'm not aware that he turned it onto atheism that much.
As for why Christians don't commit suicide (though a few do), there are plenty of reasons. As far as I can see, the main argument against atheists committing suicide is that there's no point, just as there's no point to continuing to live, so they might as well continue to live in the hope that they're wrong.
That's a pretty scary idea, isn't it, that life is ultimately brief and without purpose.
OTOH, what meaning does the God concept give life?
What exactly does god get out of having billions of people worship him? Especially since according to your theology he's going to incinerate anyone who doesn't worship him the way he wants to, so those who do worship him do so out of fear and coercion. Also since he created these beings and can by virtue of his magical powers do anything with/to/through them that he wants. Whoopee.
It doesn't really matter whether you like life's meaninglessness or not. It basically has as much meaning as you care to give it.
"My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
It gives a lovely light!"
Simon - now that is interesting about people declaring even the concept of absolute meaning to be meaningless. And I guess it explains why that cupcake machine in Douglas Adams' HHG2TG made people go mad...
I'm agreed with you about the importance and centrality of Jesus to our faith and to how we defend it - thanks, that's a useful correction.
'everything that everyone has ever accomplished will be worth precisely nothing' 'That's very different from everything being purposeless, precisely because God's actions last forever' 'Care to clarify how anything can have any meaning if everything ends in extinction anyway?'
Some things are intrinsically worthwhile. For example, the things that God does (and that's why he does them). But mere duration, even eternal duration, doesn't make something worthwhile. Likewise, mere lack of duration doesn't by itself make something not worthwhile. (Just as might doesn't necessarily make right, neither does mere duration.) So there's no logical reason that the atheist shouldn't say that what he or she tries to do is intrinsically worthwhile, and therefore meaningful, for however long it lasts.
'But again it will not be good any the more for being eternal, since that which lasts long is no whiter than that which perishes in a day' (Aristotle; see http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/ari/nico/nico006.htm)
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