tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post2512078836737329258..comments2023-07-06T15:14:57.204+01:00Comments on JOHN'S BLOG: "Confessional Anglicanism"Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-31736099608375748602007-12-20T09:54:00.000+00:002007-12-20T09:54:00.000+00:00Thanks, Custard.Re (a), what is odd is that Canon ...Thanks, Custard.<BR/><BR/>Re (a), what is odd is that Canon A2 isn't enjoining anything, despite the name `Canon'. My point was that you don't agree with it since it says that something may be assented to with good conscience that you think may not be assented to with good conscience. But maybe you don't have to agree with the Canons as long as you don't fall foul of them? (Compare: you might Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-44590379226599565222007-12-20T08:30:00.000+00:002007-12-20T08:30:00.000+00:00I will probably argue something like this (not all...I will probably argue something like this (not all these points are required):<BR/><BR/>a) Canon A2 doesn't actually require me to agree with the 39 Articles and 3 creeds. If it did, it would have used the word "must" or "should" not "may".<BR/>b) I think that the creeds do set forth the Christian faith, some of them better than others. I am happy to affirm and declare the Christian faith, which Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-76904442878605901132007-12-17T08:51:00.000+00:002007-12-17T08:51:00.000+00:00I don't think A2 is giving you permission. I think...I don't think A2 is giving you permission. I think the point is that some people, perhaps radical Puritans, were suspicious of the creeds, and A2 is reassuring them by asserting that it is possible to assent to the creeds with a good conscience. In other words, A2 is asserting that the creeds are true for all we know.<BR/><BR/>I agree that everyone else in the C of E is in the same boat, but thatDaniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-65283543129051378182007-12-17T07:57:00.000+00:002007-12-17T07:57:00.000+00:00I think it's kind of them to give me permission to...I think it's kind of them to give me permission to assent to the 39 Articles.<BR/><BR/>I'd also be surprised if you could find many members of the C of E who agree a) with the preamble in the Athanasian Creed and b) think it can be proved from Scripture.<BR/><BR/>I agree that "descended to the dead" doesn't work as a translation of "descendit ad infernis" (IIRC), especially given its place in theJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-23231175325278270422007-12-16T20:58:00.000+00:002007-12-16T20:58:00.000+00:00The `may' in A2 surely means that it is absolutely...The `may' in A2 surely means that it is absolutely fine to assent to the creeds, as Article 8 of the Thirty-Nine articles says:<BR/>The Three Creeds, Nicene Creed, Athanasius's Creed, and that which is commonly called the Apostles' Creed, ought thoroughly to be received and believed: for they may be proved by most certain warrants of holy Scripture. <BR/><BR/>So, how you can sign up to belief in Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-51174368491266035662007-12-16T16:54:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:54:00.000+00:00Apostles' Creed - is your problem with descent int...Apostles' Creed - is your problem with descent into Hell?<BR/><BR/>I think it's odd that the version in the BCP is the Tridentine version rather than the Old Roman Symbol, on which it was based. For what it's worth, the Apostles' Creed hasn't been used across the whole Church either (but the Nicene of course has).<BR/><BR/>In Canon A2, is the "may" descriptive (in which case it's false), Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-35182360118397595912007-12-16T16:38:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:38:00.000+00:00And do you submit to Canon A 2, `Of the Thirty-nin...And do you submit to Canon A 2, `Of the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion'?<BR/>`The Thirty-nine Articles are agreeable to the Word of God and may be assented unto with a good conscience by all members of the Church of England.'Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-73838458033550904952007-12-16T16:35:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:35:00.000+00:00Yes, I agree about the thief on the cross -- thou...Yes, I agree about the thief on the cross -- though I don't accept the body of the Athanasian creed either, or the Apostles' Creed, for that matter. But that's why I am not applying to be a lay reader or hold any office in the C of E. The fact that others are inconsistent doesn't entitle us to be! I'm still not sure how you can sign up to belief in the faith set forth in the catholic creeds, Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-56993986640997696292007-12-16T16:17:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:17:00.000+00:00And I'm pretty sure that if I'd pushed them they'd...And I'm pretty sure that if I'd pushed them they'd have agreed with me about the Athanasian Creed and the thief on the cross. Do you?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-7997726992518207822007-12-16T16:13:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:13:00.000+00:00I am sure that the framers of the wording thought ...I am sure that the framers of the wording thought of the Athanasian creed as a catholic creed, as it is one of the three mentioned in Article VIII.Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-11031825264023326852007-12-16T16:06:00.000+00:002007-12-16T16:06:00.000+00:00Last time I looked, the Athanasian wasn't a Cathol...Last time I looked, the Athanasian wasn't a Catholic Creed, not having been in widespread use across the whole Church at any point in history.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-49769673058637612482007-12-16T15:58:00.000+00:002007-12-16T15:58:00.000+00:00Thanks, Custard. I had forgotten about the change ...Thanks, Custard. I had forgotten about the change in the 1970s!<BR/><BR/>But isn't it going to be difficult for you to affirm and declare your belief in ‘the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds' when you don't accept one of the catholic creeds?<BR/><BR/>By the way, concerning Paul Blackham, you may be interested to see what he has to say on a Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-16671750371883351852007-12-16T15:38:00.000+00:002007-12-16T15:38:00.000+00:00And I doubt even Blackham thinks the thief on the ...And I doubt even Blackham thinks the thief on the cross was a Trinitarian, though I'm aware he doesn't believe in progressive revelation.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-37820655130065549302007-12-16T15:37:00.000+00:002007-12-16T15:37:00.000+00:00No you don't - the declaration made of candidates ...No you don't - the declaration made of candidates for ordination is<BR/><BR/><I>They have affirmed and declared their belief in ‘the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness’.</I><BR/><BR/>and at the consecration of bishops:<BR/><BR/><I>The Church of England is part of the One, Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-10807908358719327312007-12-16T15:27:00.000+00:002007-12-16T15:27:00.000+00:00But don't you have to sign the XXXIX Articles to b...But don't you have to sign the XXXIX Articles to become a minister in the C of E? Of course, I know that most people don't take this signing seriously, but I always assumed that <B>you</B> would. . . . <BR/><BR/>(I'm told that Paul Blackham thinks that the saints of the Old Testament all believed that God was a Trinity.)Daniel Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07823511443088751096noreply@blogger.com