tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post1447132853094674925..comments2023-07-06T15:14:57.204+01:00Comments on JOHN'S BLOG: Was Adam Immortal?Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-3494538217363696152007-11-10T20:40:00.000+00:002007-11-10T20:40:00.000+00:00We're generally on the same track here, though I t...We're generally on the same track here, though I think the position you describe is even closer to Irenaeus than mine is.<BR/><BR/>1,2,3 fine (but dubious on "conditional perfection" - depends what that means. In the Augustinian sense of <I>posse non peccare</I>, yes.)<BR/><BR/>4 - I've usually found it more helpful to see the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as being about taking for Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-45188684093061566632007-11-10T20:07:00.000+00:002007-11-10T20:07:00.000+00:00Custardy,I think you may be on to something here.C...Custardy,<BR/><BR/>I think you may be on to something here.Can I ask you what you think is the significance of the Tree of Life in Genesis and in Revelation?<BR/><BR/>Could it run like this?<BR/><BR/>1. Adam and Eve had conditional immortality and conditional<BR/>perfection -'good' but 'pre-holy' for want of a better term.<BR/><BR/>2. God permitted them to eat of all the Trees in the Garden Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-10576027286680505092007-11-09T20:46:00.000+00:002007-11-09T20:46:00.000+00:00Couple of things to think about to help clear it u...Couple of things to think about to help clear it up:<BR/><BR/>1) When the tabernacle/temple was built, it was exactly according to a perfect plan, using exactly the right materials. So why did it need to be consecrated with sacrifices and anointed?<BR/><BR/>2) In what ways is the risen Christ better than Adam (with reference to 1 Cor 15:35ff)? Could we have been created as "spiritual" instead of Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-7929077162529116472007-11-09T17:40:00.000+00:002007-11-09T17:40:00.000+00:00Not quite sure if I follow you here. Is there evi...Not quite sure if I follow you here. Is there evidence in Genesis that pre-fall, there was any need for sacrifices? Sacrifices did not seem to be happening until after expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Offerings were made by Cain and Abel in Gen 4. The sense in which we read this is one of acceptance of individuals before God. <BR/><BR/>Yet surely Adam and Eve were accepted pre-fall or (and I Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-12164642632898705672007-11-08T23:01:00.000+00:002007-11-08T23:01:00.000+00:00In terms of Old Testament ceremonial categories, t...In terms of Old Testament ceremonial categories, the best that good created things can manage is "clean". In order to be "holy", they need sacrifices and anointing and stuff.<BR/><BR/>Adam was clean, but it would have taken further action by God to make him holy.<BR/><BR/>Supralapsarian means I think that the Fall was always part of God's plan (hence dealing with a lot of the other questions). I Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-18107198327897994902007-11-08T21:42:00.000+00:002007-11-08T21:42:00.000+00:00Custardy,So are you saying then, that Adam and Eve...Custardy,<BR/><BR/>So are you saying then, that Adam and Eve were not holy although they were pre-fall, pronounced 'good'. <BR/><BR/>So what would have happened if they had continued in obedience? Would they have been taken up into heaven at some stage? This supposes that God had a sort of dualistic creation in mind. <BR/><BR/>How would he had dealt with the population explosion if people did Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-83392320368562855892007-11-07T08:34:00.000+00:002007-11-07T08:34:00.000+00:00Interesting hypothetical, but that's all it is, es...Interesting hypothetical, but that's all it is, especially since I'm supralapsarian.<BR/><BR/>Irenaeus, with whom I have quite a bit of sympathy, argued that Jesus would have needed to become incarnate anyway, even if neither Adam or Eve had sinned, in order for us to be made holy. And that's an important point to make. The redeemed Christian in glory is far better off than Adam and Eve were Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-306171807556625982007-11-06T23:17:00.000+00:002007-11-06T23:17:00.000+00:00OK guys, stick this one in your theological pipe a...OK guys, stick this one in your theological pipe and smoke it:<BR/><BR/>What to you think would have happened if Eve having eaten the fruit gave it to Adam who then refused to eat it and obeyed God's original command? Would Jesus still have come-but to die for women only? What about the seed being passed from Adam?<BR/><BR/>Some questions to consider are:<BR/>1. Would the progeny of Adam and Eve Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-31786193694423185602007-11-06T14:12:00.000+00:002007-11-06T14:12:00.000+00:00And that's heading towards a better argument again...And that's heading towards a better argument against death in creation before the Fall...<BR/><BR/>My point was simply that Romans 5 doesn't do the work creationists want it to.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-29582380204013062112007-11-06T13:49:00.000+00:002007-11-06T13:49:00.000+00:00Personally, I find it hard to believe that God cou...Personally, I find it hard to believe that God could call death and suffering "very good." Whether we're talking about humans or not, death and suffering can't be a good thing. If the perfect God of the universe creates something and says it is "very good," I think we can be pretty sure it's perfect. Is animal death a perfect situation?<BR/><BR/>I presume insects, bacteria and plant life all diedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-36380901876493741242007-11-06T10:18:00.000+00:002007-11-06T10:18:00.000+00:00Yes. It's also clear in Romans 5 that death enteri...Yes. It's also clear in Romans 5 that death entering the world must be talking specifically about death of humans ("and so death came to all because all sinned"), humans being defined partly in relation to God.<BR/><BR/>So Romans 5 is completely compatible with the idea of having Adam evolving, then God revealing himself to Adam and giving him access to the Tree of Life, which Adam then lost Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-77975709121881910742007-11-06T10:00:00.000+00:002007-11-06T10:00:00.000+00:00I was thinking about this recently in discussing c...I was thinking about this recently in discussing creation and evolution with a friend and in thinking about the resurrection. The whole question of death before Adam is an interesting one, and something that Creationists like to pick up on, arguing that if death came through Adam, then evolution couldn't have happened since natural selection involves animals dying and so on.<BR/><BR/>This rather Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14761353888872137118noreply@blogger.com