tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post6899525493315330536..comments2023-07-06T15:14:57.204+01:00Comments on JOHN'S BLOG: Hermeneutics and Penal Substitution - Response to a CommentJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-78292441134349444832009-06-05T10:53:14.477+01:002009-06-05T10:53:14.477+01:00Sadly, those don't actually answer the questio...Sadly, those don't actually answer the questions.<br /><br />As to whether the effect of Jesus' guilt-bearing apply more widely - surely it depends on whether the people want to lose their guilt. If people refuse to acknowledge that guilt, then it remains. If they are willing to acknowledge it and let it rest on Jesus, it can be forgiven...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-82979161851752916012007-12-20T22:09:00.000+00:002007-12-20T22:09:00.000+00:00As to "Why not?"If Jesus' crucifixion was for the ...As to "Why not?"<BR/>If Jesus' crucifixion was for the cause of God to exercise his wrath against one individual to satisfy himself and excuse all other persons from death the result is a blanket pardon for all others. This idea is expressed by Caiaphas. "It is a good idea that one man die to save the people." or nation. <BR/>But the truth is even after one man has been crucified to save all the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-87001869671312723292007-12-20T18:19:00.000+00:002007-12-20T18:19:00.000+00:00The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement or...<I>The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement or substitutionary atonement is an error because the expected benefit of obtaining a remission from the penalty of sins cannot be obtained as a direct benefit if a human male's life is taken by bloodshed.</I><BR/><BR/>Why not?<BR/><BR/><I>The only Way Jesus' crucifixion can be a benefit is BY having a lawful procedure of resolving that sin AFTER Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-84822663594375611772007-12-20T16:59:00.000+00:002007-12-20T16:59:00.000+00:00The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement or...The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement or substitutionary atonement is an error because the expected benefit of obtaining a remission from the penalty of sins cannot be obtained as a direct benefit if a human male's life is taken by bloodshed. <BR/> The only Way Jesus' crucifixion can be a benefit is BY having a lawful procedure of resolving that sin AFTER the fact of him having been Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-67069548572037037022007-12-20T08:21:00.000+00:002007-12-20T08:21:00.000+00:00Are you then saying that Jesus and/or God was at f...Are you then saying that Jesus and/or God was at fault for Jesus' death and hence that it was a sin for them to commit?<BR/><BR/>If so, how would you deal with John 10:17-18?<BR/><BR/><I>"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-80970463209429019292007-12-20T00:59:00.000+00:002007-12-20T00:59:00.000+00:00Good to have you join Mr. Woodbridge and thanks fo...Good to have you join Mr. Woodbridge and thanks for the attempt at clarification, but I see that I need to restate some things.<BR/><BR/>1. The theory of penal substitutionary atonement/substitutionary atonement has the base element of prior thought of expecting a direct benefit from the commission of a sin. However since the sin of Jesus' includes the action of taking a man's life by bloodshed Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-89138443967104270922007-12-18T17:55:00.000+00:002007-12-18T17:55:00.000+00:00In which case surely something like Genesis 50:20 ...In which case surely something like Genesis 50:20 would apply, after one of the great OT types of the cross:<BR/><BR/><I>You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.</I>Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-37521087518124353892007-12-18T11:28:00.000+00:002007-12-18T11:28:00.000+00:00I've tried to get my head around the convoluted gr...I've tried to get my head around the convoluted grammar and logic, and I'll give my best shot at responding.<BR/><BR/>Theodore seems to be asking "how can we be forgiven through Jesus' crucifixion, if killing Jesus on the cross was itself a sin?"<BR/><BR/>Basically, through Jesus' self-sacrifice on the cross, <I>all</I> our guilt can be taken away, including our guilt for Jesus' death. <BR/><BR/>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14761353888872137118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-40174221268342157162007-12-17T17:22:00.000+00:002007-12-17T17:22:00.000+00:00As to 5, thanks for the compliment.However when yo...As to 5, thanks for the compliment.<BR/><BR/>However when you get to the other side say to God. "God I'm am so very very thankful you sent Jesus and he died in my place." But the gate into the kingdom of God is very small and narrow and no man will be allowed to enter this gate by reliance on a sin. <BR/><BR/>So like I said test your faith. At least for my self I have explained to you the only Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-35429649103977094222007-12-17T08:04:00.000+00:002007-12-17T08:04:00.000+00:001) No-one is saying that anyone is exonerated by c...1) No-one is saying that anyone is exonerated by crucifying God's Son. People are exonerated by faith in God's crucified Son, despite the fact that they crucified him.<BR/><BR/>2) What have the wise and foolish builders got to do with this?<BR/><BR/>3) I agree that we are all responsible for killing Jesus. Isn't it interesting that as he died, Jesus asked for forgiveness for those who killed him?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-66773383967082568312007-12-16T23:04:00.000+00:002007-12-16T23:04:00.000+00:00The parable of the "Tenants" is found in Mt. 21:33...The parable of the "Tenants" is found in Mt. 21:33-44, Mk. 12:1-11, and Lk. 20:9-18. In no case does Jesus say anyone is exonerated of anything by crucifying God's only begotten son. There is also the story about the wise builder and the builders which are foolish. So hold your breath and test their theory. For they thought it was a good idea for a man to die and save the people. However God Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-45440496349843805712007-12-16T18:04:00.000+00:002007-12-16T18:04:00.000+00:00(Could someone who can write in clear and logical ...(Could someone who can write in clear and logical English please translate the above? I'm not sure I understand it fully...)<BR/><BR/>From what I do understand of it, Stott's famous words that <I>we cannot understand the crucifixion as done for us until we understand it as done by us</I> are apposite. So had I been there, in all probability I would have been one of the crowd calling for his Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487495921222083129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18654361.post-51654384625165748642007-12-16T17:49:00.000+00:002007-12-16T17:49:00.000+00:00According to Jesus it is only a few that find the ...According to Jesus it is only a few that find the only small narrow gate for escaping from death which has been perfected by his crucifixion. <BR/>There cannot be any reason for a conviction without there also having been a prior offense. Since the crucifixion of Jesus is the sin of murder caused by bloodshed it is the action of taking his life by bloodshed that is accountable directly to God as Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com